Anita Savage knows that divorce is often times the period of pain, as people suffer with feelings of grief and anger. She also knows it could be a time of transformation and hope. Anita has been practicing family law for over 2 decades and she uses her experience to help families protect what matters most in the divorce process. Anita is well respected in our North Texas Dallas Community. She is the immediate past president of Collaborative Divorce Dallas, and is also a member of the North Texas Collaborative Divorce Alliance.
Jennifer Hargrave:
Anita, I want to welcome you and thank you for coming to be here today.
Anita Savage:
Thanks, Jennifer. I appreciate it.
Jennifer:
You are very involved in the Collaborative Divorce Movement.
Anita:
Yes.
Jennifer:
How did you find out about it? What attracted you to collaborative divorce?
Anita:
I found out about the Collaborative Divorce Movement, actually when I was getting my own divorce. I had gone to an attorney and I was really afraid of what that process was going to be like. I didn’t want to destroy my family. My love for my husband was gone but my love for my family wasn’t. I wanted to make sure that we did it in a good and respectful way. My attorney just happened to know about it and told me about it, and I thought it was an excellent option. Unfortunately, my husband didn’t agree; he had an attorney who was different than mine. We ended up going through litigation and it just confirmed to me how important it was that this option is there.
After my own divorce, I went into family law, full time, so that I could start helping families heal as opposed to making matters worse.
How is Collaborative Divorce different from traditional divorce litigation?
Jennifer:
How do you see collaborative divorce as a different option? In what ways is it different than more traditional litigated divorce?
Anita:
I think that the way that it is the most different is that the two parties, the couple, are in charge of everything. They’re in charge of how fast it goes, the decisions that they make, when they’re ready to make them, how they’re made; its really family-focused. The other thing is that it is all private, confidential, and that is completely different than a regular, traditional divorce.
Jennifer:
Now, I don’t think a lot of people are aware of these days of how public divorce proceedings are, especially right now, courts are broadcasting. The trial’s on Zoom or on YouTube. You can go and watch other people’s divorces.
Anita:
Don’t think I don’t.
Jennifer:
Exactly, me too. They’ve always been public. It was a little more difficult to have to pay for parking and go down and sit in the courtroom than it is to just see what’s on YouTube.
What benefits have you seen for your clients in the Collaborative Divorce process?
Anita:
I’ve seen tons of benefits with collaborative divorce. The one that we just talked about, the privacy of it, the fact that it can be structured in a way that a lot of times, when people are getting a divorce, one person is far ahead of the other, in terms of the readiness scale. Having the team available to help, not only coach the one that is wanting that divorce quickly, but also assist the one who is saying, “Hey, what’s just happened? Why are we even in a divorce?” That’s been really helpful.
Jennifer:
I think divorce readiness is such a good topic to talk about because it makes sense, but people don’t realize once you’ve made the decision to divorce, you’ve probably been living with that decision for a while, where you could be totally blindsiding your spouse and they’ve no idea it’s coming. How does that create problems in the divorce process?
Anita:
Where do I begin? The first part is just the person who’s ready, the one who’s been thinking about it for a year and a half and has finally come to the decision that their life is going to be better post-divorce than it is at that moment, they’ve made all the decisions in their mind. They’ve figured out how things are going to work. If it’s the non-moneyed spouse, that person has figured out, “How am I going to pay for this and the things that normally my other spouse would pay for?” For the one who found out, oftentimes, it really is a shock. They might have been talking about divorce before that, but that was peripheral or a concept as opposed to something that they actually were going to go through. The one who’s behind has to make all of those decisions and think about all of those things in a very short amount of time.
In litigation, the judges are in charge of their own docket. Depending on which Judges Court you land in, when your case is going to get dismissed is not up to the attorneys or the parties. It’s up to the judge. When you have to move forward and make decisions, that’s all up to the judge. It’s not up to the parties.
The thing about collaborative is we can slow the process down long enough to make the surprised spouse catch up and make good decisions. That said, I don’t think that the collaborative process is any more long than a regular divorce. Divorces are very long, especially litigated divorces. In fact, I would say that they’re longer than my standard, collaborative case.
Jennifer:
Yeah, I have found that, too. I think, oftentimes, when we’re in litigation, the Rules of Civil Procedure just start to draw things out. We end up arguing about things like, “Did you turn over all the documents?” In Collaborative Divorce, the parties are both committing at the outset that they’re going to make full disclosure. We have a neutral financial professional who’s working with both parties to make sure that everything has been disclosed.
Anita:
That’s exactly right.
Jennifer:
If one party has a question, they get to ask the questions. We’re doing it together as opposed to this adversarial process where it does feel like it’s hide the ball.
Anita:
Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree with you. The way that I explain it to my clients is that Collaborative Law offers you all of the protections as regular litigation does, in terms of like standing orders. Not only are they in effect because there’s a lawsuit, but also, we are all committing to follow those same standing orders, disclosure of information, making decisions that are child based. Those are all things that we, as a team, are committing to, and we’re going to help the spouses as they make their way through it.
It’s really easy to forget sometimes when you’re in the pain of a divorce, right? “The decisions I make actually affect my kids or the long-term decisions that I have to make.” Having those neutrals in place who actually can assist them in a way that, “I can’t,” is really helpful. In my opinion, it’s the most efficient way that our clients can spend their money.
Jennifer:
I agree with that. I think so often, especially when working with the mental health professional when it comes to kiddo issues, people don’t realize in the litigated divorce, you’re at war with the other side. You’re not really getting to sit down and have the conversations that you need to have. The collaborative divorce process offers the opportunity to sit down and help get on the same page with a mental health professional, in terms of, “How are we going to tell the kids? When are we going to tell the kids? What are we going to tell the kids?”
Anita:
Right, exactly.
Jennifer:
People don’t realize the benefits for the children, post-divorce, are I think, invaluable.
Anita:
Yeah, I completely agree with you. There’s another tool that we’ve recently started using which is the Child Specialist. I have seen amazing things with that. That’s a really incredible thing, too.
Jennifer:
One of the interesting things about the role of the child specialist is it really helps give a voice to the children. People often enter the divorce process thinking, “I want my child to go talk to the judge. My child needs to be the one who’s making decisions,” and they don’t realize it’s really putting the child in the middle of the divorce process. That creates more conflict and more stress for the children, right?
Anita:
Right. Yeah, absolutely.
How does the role of a child specialist alleviate conflict?
Jennifer:
How have you seen the role of the child specialist to help alleviate conflict?
Anita:
I think it gives the children a voice in a very safe place. The child specialist that I’ve worked with, they are able to talk with the kids not only about what’s going on in their family and how their family is going to be different, but also in terms of what it is that they need and want, so that their parents can be aware of it and thinking about it as they make their own decisions.
Jennifer:
It’s really the information. The conversation that the child specialist is having is somebody who’s skilled and working with children, and can have it in a way that is safe for the kids, that doesn’t put them in the middle. Lawyers would probably be, “So, what do you want to happen,” which is why you should not be talking to children. It just creates more stress. I think it’s such an effective way for parents to hear in a constructive way, what their child’s perception is.
The other thing I find, and tell me if you find this too, is that children in the middle of divorce, often are telling the parents what the parent wants to hear. If they see the parents struggling with grief and sadness, they want to try and make things easier for the parents.
Anita:
Exactly, what they actually want or need from their parents. Yeah, I completely agree with you.
Jennifer:
Tell me, how do you help a client figure out whether or not collaborative divorce is right for them?
Anita:
Well, it’s a process that I help my client figure out as I get to know them. As I’m talking with them, usually, in the first time that we talk, I’m trying to gather as much information I can about which process is the right one for them. More often than not, collaborative is. The problem is we have to get the other side to agree to it. It’s a process that you have to enter into voluntarily. We can’t just throw it on you. I’m always thinking about that. A lot of times, my first question will be, “Does your husband or wife have an attorney? If so, who is it?” That will, oftentimes, tell me the trajectory of the way that the case is going to go. If it’s somebody who is collaborative, then I will immediately explain to them the benefits of collaborative divorce and why I think that’s better. I’ll give them all the information that they need to be able to talk to their spouse about it, as well. A lot of times people don’t even know what it is, right?
Our goal as an attorney is to explain to our clients all of the different options for decision making and for their case.
Jennifer:
People don’t realize that collaborative divorce is something that fortunately, in our area, a lot of lawyers are trained and there are a lot of great options out there. There are also a lot of lawyers who we always would say, “never made the Paradigm Shift”. They don’t believe in it. They don’t see how it could be helpful. They don’t have experience in it. When you go to visit with a lawyer, you may be visiting with somebody who doesn’t believe in the collaborative divorce process, right?
Anita:
Right. Something that I tell my clients, hopefully they’re in a place that they can be talking with their spouse still, sometimes they’re not, and that’s okay. I often times will tell my clients to go and speak with other attorneys because the way that I see things isn’t necessarily the way that you’ll see something. It’s super important to have somebody that you believe and trust because I think a lot of what we do is tell our clients really bad news, right? They don’t want to hear it. Knowing that I’m not just saying that, that they can trust me with that information is helpful.
Jennifer:
I think that trust is such an imperative piece of the attorney-client relationship. A lot of times, clients who are facing divorce may feel like, in order to protect themselves, they need to go with the meanest, baddest lawyer in town. You and I see what happens when people choose that.
Anita:
They spend a lot of money and they get angrier. It gets harder to do the things that you thought you were going to be able to do after the marriage was over. I think most people think that their life is going to be better, but if you are stuck in pain from the last three years of litigation and all these terrible accusations being thrown against you, having to testify in court, or getting other people involved in your divorce, it’s a nightmare.
Jennifer:
It is. It’s really hard to come back a healthy, co-parenting relationship with that person. One of the big differences between collaborative and litigation is in litigation, we are all focused on every bad decision that was ever made in the past, right? That’s the name of the game. Every secret that was revealed between a husband and wife in the context of an intimate relationship is now fair game to be exploited in the litigation process. What I love about collaborative is that we’re really focusing on future. That stuff is in the past. You can choose to let it go and you can choose to put your time and energy in what you’re going to build in the future.
What do you think are some common misperceptions that people have about collaborative divorce? This could be other lawyers, as well as clients who come in wanting to talk to you about divorce.
What do you think are some common misperceptions that people have about collaborative divorce?
Anita:
There’s a lot of misconceptions when it comes to collaborative divorce. I think the first misconception is probably that this is going to be like a “Kumbaya” moment where everyone’s getting along great. That’s not true. You’re still going through a divorce. It’s a painful process. The mechanism that you’re going through it in the collaborative process is one that is focused towards resolution, towards the kids, finding the correct and best options for both parties and the kids post-divorce. It doesn’t mean that tempers aren’t going to flare. It doesn’t mean that it’s going to be easy; it just means that you’re going to have the support system in place to be able to make those decisions with information, knowledge, and knowing that the future is going to be impacted better, than not better.
Jennifer:
It brought to mind, you’re talking one of the things that we don’t really necessarily share with clients, but I think it’s good for them to know, and that’s in the collaborative divorce process when you have a team of professionals that you’re working with, the team holds each other accountable. We get to have conversations after a meeting is over, you can say to me, “Jennifer, you really came on too strong, it really upset my client.” I have an opportunity to look and reflect on that and see how I can maybe come to the table differently next time, or address whatever needs to be addressed.
Anita:
Yeah, I agree with you.
Jennifer:
That does not happen in litigation, right?
Anita:
No, it absolutely doesn’t happen. It doesn’t happen at all. I completely agree with you. The way that I explain it to my clients isn’t that last 15 minutes when the clients are gone, that’s where the magic happens because it’s the time when we can say, let’s just say that we’re on a case, like “Jennifer, I felt like what you proposed there was a little aggressive,” and then we get the feedback of the other professionals so that we, ourselves, can learn and grow, and become a better collaborative professional, and also be aware of it for the next time, because we’re going to meet again. Decisions are going to be made, eventually.
Jennifer:
Exactly. It is a really valuable part of having a good team who’s committed. Everybody at the table is committed to being a better collaborative professional, and really helping people figure out, “How do we put these pieces to the puzzle together,” right?
Anita:
Right, in the in the best way possible, too. One asset isn’t necessarily the same as another one, even if it’s the same value. The way that they are going to be used is different. Each spouse’s desire to have that particular asset could be different.
Jennifer:
Exactly. I always say, “Look, if you are in agreement with everything, you don’t need a process.” You just paper up the deal and get it done. If you’re having conflict and disagreements, and “We don’t really agree on the value of this. This is separate property. Who should be primary where the children should live?” Having a collaborative process allows you to really get creative and explore options in a healthy and constructive way.
Anita:
Yeah, I agree.
Jennifer:
One of the great privileges of being a collaborative law professional is getting to practice with people like you.
Anita:
Aw, thanks.
Jennifer:
I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule, having talked to us today about collaborative divorce.
Anita:
You’re welcome. It’s been my pleasure.
