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Co-parenting in High Conflict Cases With Carrie Beaird

Conflict between parents can be devastating for children. While separating may relieve some of the things that people are arguing over, it’s not uncommon for parents who are newly separated or divorced to find a whole new host of issues and challenges when it comes to navigating the co-parenting relationship. Carrie Beard is the founder of Co-Parenting Solutions located in North Texas where she helps parents every day approach the co-parenting relationship with new tools and resources to really help improve that relationship. 

Carrie and Jennifer Hargrave sat down to talk about parental conflict and co-parenting. Check out the full podcast on our Youtube channel or read a full transcript of Carrie and Jennifer’s conversation below. 

Hargrave Family Law offers its clients in Dallas and North Texas a comprehensive approach to divorce and all family law matters. Jennifer Hargrave has been helping clients deal with divorce for over 15 years. If you’re located in Dallas, Fort-Worth, or anywhere in North Texas, give us a call at (214) 420-0100.

Jennifer Hargrave:

Carrie, I’m so excited to have you here today. You are sort of the go-to expert in the realm of parental conflict and especially how to help resolve parental conflict.

Carrie Beaird:

Oh, thank you so much Jennifer, for the invitation. I’ve looked forward to being on your show.

Jennifer Hargrave:

Well, I want to talk with you, I mean co-parenting conflict is such a common experience for so many families, and I want to sort just pull back for a minute and talk about what is driving the conflict. What do you find when you’re working with people who are really embroiled in conflict?

Carrie Beaird:

I think part of the conflict comes from things that happened in the marriage that have been unresolved. Example, if you had trouble communicating in a marriage, guess what, you’re going to have trouble communicating as co-parents. If there were anger issues in a marriage or lying, then you’re going to have anger issues or honesty issues in the co-parenting. So until those core issues are really dealt with, and it’s different for every co-parenting group that I deal with, you’re still going to have situations that are acted out and conflict situations that arise.

Jennifer Hargrave:

So you’re telling me that divorce doesn’t solve all the issues?

Carrie Beaird:

Oh my goodness, it doesn’t. It doesn’t. You still have to work through those things, or if you are the person who is irritated by those things then you have to have a strategy to deal with it because they just don’t change because someone is divorced.

Jennifer Hargrave:

Okay, we’re definitely going to talk through some of those strategies, but before we do I want to talk about how important your work is because of the impact that conflict has on children. So let’s talk a little bit about what happens for a child when they’re witnessing a lot of parental conflict.

Carrie Beaird:

Oh, my heart just breaks a lot of times for kids, because kids, Jennifer, they want to be able to love mom and they want to be able to love dad, because they’re part mom and they’re part dad. And so a lot of times kids get stuck in this loyalty bind that just grates on them. And sometimes we actually see kids who just to survive their parents conflict get caught in living a compartmental lives life, meaning they have one set of thoughts at moms, one set of thoughts at dads. I’ve had kids who tell one parent, “Hey, I want to play soccer,” and the other one, “Hey, I want to play baseball.” And they really mean it at that time.

Carrie Beaird:

And at that point in time, Jennifer, my heart breaks for the kid because I want a kid who is going to be able to sit in my office and be an accurate reporter of their truth. Maybe they don’t want to play softball and they don’t want to play soccer, they want to play the tuba. Good for that kid, but I want that kid to be able to say what they mean and both parents receive that. But that struggle that kids have in just being true or being able to honor what they really feel is one of the biggest things that I see with kids. Also, kids struggle with the conflict when parents can’t deal with coaches and teachers and doctors.

Carrie Beaird:

Oh my gosh, these folks just want to be positive people in your kids’ life. And a kid sits there with the knowledge that mom and dad can’t get along with a teacher or the doctor or the coach, and that actually over time will close doors for that kid because people will start to back away, not because of the kid but because of what their parents are doing. It’s horrible and I don’t want parents to be that parent. And one of the things I will do is to say you have to change your strategy because you’re on the road to becoming that parent.

The Children’s Role in Co-Parenting

Jennifer Hargrave:

So I want to back up for a second because you just said something that I think is so important and that is that the child needs to be able to know their own truth. And when they’re stuck in the loyalty bind, they’re stuck in trying to please a parent or trying to tell a parent what they think that parent wants to hear, kind of at a self preservation, and they may even lose the ability to know their own truth.

Carrie Beaird:

Yes they do, because when I talk to kids sometimes I’m like, “Well you told mom that you wanted to play soccer and dad you wanted to play baseball.” And they’ll look at me and go, “Yeah, I mean it, because soccer means this to mom and soccer means this to dad.” So just to get along with the conflict they actually become who they think the parent wants them to be at that moment. And that’s horrible for a kid and is not sustainable.

Jennifer Hargrave:

So that might be one of the reasons why when parents come in saying, “Well, Johnny told me he wants to play soccer and the other parent isn’t letting him play soccer,” we can’t be relying on what the children are telling us because they’re put in the middle.

Carrie Beaird:

And when I hear that, I think I sometimes surprise parents because I look right at them and go, “I feel so sorry for your child, because at this moment it’s not about soccer and baseball, it’s because they’re stuck. And part of your responsibility is greater than soccer and baseball, your responsibility is to create an environment between the homes where the kid can be an accurate reporter of their truth.”

Jennifer Hargrave:

Of their truth.

Carrie Beaird:

Of their truth. And that’s what we’re going for.

Jennifer Hargrave:

There’s really nothing more important, I think, in life than to grow up and kind of know your truth. And I say that as an almost 52 year old woman who is still struggling with that. But that is really one of the things is to know, to be able to stand in your own truth is such an important thing about being a functioning adult. Okay, how do parents get here? Because nobody says I really want to mess up my life or my child’s life and I want to make sure they’re as miserable as possible. I mean parents are generally, I think, well-intentioned when it comes to their children. It’s just the things that they’re doing are so unhealthy for the kiddo.

Carrie Beaird:

Well, I think some of it has to do with there are some core issues. Co-parents need to communicate. They need to learn to make decisions, not what they want but what is in the best interest of the child. And my goodness, we argue about that sometimes because those two bleed over for some people, but truly what is in the best interest of this child and how we manage conflict. So many times when folks get to my office, I mean folks get to my office not because things are going well. We’ve got conflict. But here’s the deal, a lot of that conflict over the years, both of them have become reactive to the other versus one of the things I’m trying to teach people is how to be strategic, not for your side but for the child.

Carrie Beaird:

And so I will tell people all the time I need you to speak to what you have heard the child say or what you believe, not bring your stuff over into it because sometimes people will project their thoughts and feelings about their co-parent and they will present that in such a way that kids even feel the tension. I mean you don’t have to say anything, but it’s the look. And sometimes I start people out with, “I need you to say hello. Hello. Not hello, but hello. And then if you say anything else I want it to be something positive about your kid.” In fact, I’ll tell you what I do in my office.

Carrie Beaird:

My very first question, I think it irritates some people, is I’ll say, “Okay, I need to know something about something that’s positive in kid world. 30 seconds, a minute, let’s go.” And I do that because I want them to understand they’ve got a kid and there needs to be positive things in kid world that is truly about the kid and they need to tone down their anger and tone down their frustrations. And we don’t need to ignore those frustrations, but we need to have a strategic plan to deal with them that’s not reactive.

Jennifer Hargrave:

Oh, okay. So when you’ve got people that come into your office, you were saying usually it’s not because they’ve been getting along great, but it’s because they’ve been identified maybe through the legal system that they’re running some high conflict. What is your role and how do you begin to work with families then?

Carrie Beaird:

Yeah, so as a peer facilitator I’m trying to do two things. I’m trying to deal with presenting problems and those might be what are we going to do with the extracurricular? What are we going to do about doctors? How are we going to do exchanges? It’s just kind of the working of being co-parents. Then I also have to deal with those core issues of communication and decision making and conflict, because if I don’t fix that and if we don’t have a strategy for dealing with those things, then we’re still going to have presenting problems because the broken core totally continues to fill those life issues. And life is going to continue to happen and this has got to be fixed. And believe it or not, we can get people to the point where if that’s working, folks will come into my office and go, “Hey, we dealt with it all in the waiting room.” Amazing. That just warms my heart.

Jennifer Hargrave:

Do you ever find, because this is what I hear, because I’ve only represented one party, is that it’s the other side who’s making things so difficult. I know that there certainly are patterns of behaviors and personality disorders that may factor into these things, but how do you help parents navigate that if it appears that it’s one person who’s more presenting as the problem?

Listening, Learning, and Being Productive as Co-Parents

Carrie Beaird:

Yeah, so one of the things I will tell co-parents in an individual meeting, I want them to be heard. I want to hear what their frustrations are. But we cannot stay stuck there. We have to find a strategy to be able to go, okay, well if this is the personality disorder or if this is the issue, then how do we have a strategy to move it into a more productive co-parenting, a situation that’s better for the child? So they can choose to stay stuck and they’ll be coming to my office for a while, or we can choose to do something different and see if we can’t get movement to where we can get some resolution of the tension, especially for the kids and secondarily for the parents.

Jennifer Hargrave:

When we talk about saying stuck, sometimes I wonder… it’s very popular right now to label people, whether it’s a borderline or a narcissist or whatever the label is, there’s lots of information out there about the different disorders. How do you find that that labeling can either interfere or help maybe sometimes parents navigate?

Carrie Beaird:

I think some parents are helped because that helps them to understand what they’re dealing with, but I have to be very careful. You don’t want to just throw a label out there unless a person has received a diagnosis. At the end of the day they’re going to be co-parents and they have kids and that’s the decision that just keeps on giving. And so they’re going to have to navigate this together. And so whatever the diagnosis or the feeling or whatever it is, again, there has to be a plan. And so many times they’ve been locked up in this sort of a conflict and if I can get one person to do something different, sometimes that starts the path to resolve some things. But when you’re stuck like that, you’re just stuck. So somebody has to do something different. Hopefully both of them do something different and then we can get to a better place.

Jennifer Hargrave:

What do you find makes people stuck? I mean, I have my idea, so I’m asking that, but when they get so entrenched and you just dig in your heels, what are we really fighting about? I mean, I think it’s not how we put the cap back on the toothpaste tube. I mean, whatever they’re fighting about can take different forms, but in those moments when we’ve got people are really entrenched, what do you find is kind of underlying?

Carrie Beaird:

Hatred of each other. It’s need to control, it’s need to be right. And it is also just the past conflict continuing to boil over into the present. And so it’s not the soccer, it’s not which pediatrician, it’s all of this and it breaks my heart. But in any given week I’ll have to look at co-parents and say, “You know what, if your child feels 5% of the tension that I’m feeling in the office and I choose to be here, then my heart breaks for your child.” So sometimes when I can pull it down into it’s not about mom, it’s not about dad, it’s what this child is feeling, sometimes I can get them to stop and go, “Okay, what is our child feeling?” And I will ask that as a follow up, “What is your child feeling? Because right now this isn’t good. And you may tell me that you’re trying to hide it but your child who is half mom and half dad, they can feel that conflict.”

Jennifer Hargrave:

They can definitely feel it, they’re little sponges. All right, we’re talking about strategies. So I know every family’s different in terms of maybe the specific things they’re arguing about. Are there some general strategies that you’re able to sort of help people learn to improve the parenting process?

Carrie Beaird:

Sure. One of the first things I start off with is communication, because if I can affect communication then a lot of other things fall in place. And what I ask my clients to do is be very business-like and professional in their communication. That means no yelling, that means no cussing. That means no, “Hey, back seven years ago you did this and I’m still mad.” I want it to be business-like, professional, short, direct and to the point. It needs to be about the child not the past and not their personal stuff, and it needs to be focused on a solution. And so a part of the protocol I use in my office is mom may share a concern, dad responds, I hold back and then I move them toward a solution. Everything has to be about a solution because if we’re not doing that we’re staying stuck.

Jennifer Hargrave:

And that impasse is, I mean, that happens a lot. One phrase that I hear that comes up is parallel parenting. So I’ll either hear from a client of like, “I figured out we just need to be parallel parenting,” or my client will say, “The other parent said they’re going to do parallel parenting and that I’m not supposed to talk with them about anything.” And so I wanted to get your professional opinion on what is parallel parenting, when is it the appropriate tool of the toolbox maybe, and when do we avoid it, I guess?

Carrie Beaird:

So by strict definition, parallel parenting says there’s mom’s house and she does her thing and makes her decisions. There’s dad’s house and he does this thing and makes his decision and there’s little to no communication in the middle. And I would say it’s not really effective unless someone is sole. Because with joint managing conservatorship, you have to be able to do a thin line. Notice I said thin line. When folks come to my office I’m not trying for fluffy co-parenting because most people go, “Okay, we’re not getting there.” Now some of them do and that’s really exciting. But I’m first dealing with a narrow, narrow thin line that says we have to be able to talk about health, education, scheduling activities, kid business, keep our child out of the middle and work well with other providers.

Carrie Beaird:

That’s the thin line. And if you’re JMC you have to be able to do the thin line. I’m not talking about fluff. I’m just talking about thin line. And for my clients, a lot of times that helps them to go, “Whew, okay,” because they think they’re trying to sign up for fluff and they can’t imagine getting there. No, I’m just trying for the thin line

Jennifer Hargrave:

Because the reality is parents have very different parenting styles and that kids actually benefit from having different parenting styles. It’s one of the things I’ve learned to appreciate in raising my own children is where dad’s much more the risk taker and the less rules and go for it and I want to wrap them in bubble wrap. Those different parenting styles are actually good for kids.

Carrie Beaird:

And I also think there’s differences with the homes, there can be absolutes, things that we believe in wholeheartedly. We want our children to do well in school, but how that’s worked out it can be separate. So there can be absolutes and house specifics, and I think that’s helpful for people to realize.

Jennifer Hargrave:

It is, and so when you’re talking about the absolutes, is that those are things that both people have to be able to come to of their own free will. It’s not a coercion. It’s a yep, I agree, bedtime should be nine o’clock, bedtime should be nine o’clock. Great, that’s our agreement. We’ll revisit it when the kiddo gets older.

Carrie Beaird:

Yeah, a lot of times with absolutes in my office, it’s more of an umbrella effect. We want kids to do well in school. We want our kids to be honest. We want our kids to be healthy. But then how that actually gets worked out, they can have a little different approaches. And it’s really interesting, as I give people to have some different approaches to that, it sometimes calms some of the conflict down.

Jennifer Hargrave:

There’s something that I noticed, and I noticed it in myself too, I have my own great experiment that I study, but that if somebody has a different perspective than I have, that that somehow is intimidating and frightening, that they have to be able to share the same perspective or else I’m somehow invalidated, and it’s just not the case. We can have very, very different perspectives and understandings of things and we can both be right. We don’t all have to have the exact same formula for how we’re going to carry this out.

Carrie Beaird:

Even in a divorce situation, your child is going to get part of mom’s personality and part of dad’s personality. Hopefully they get the better parts of the personality and leave some more of them behind. But with that, like I’ve said before, they’re part mom and part dad and maybe dad does some things and really enjoys those things with the kids and mom does something else. And sometimes even in dealing with academics, I’m like, “Okay, who’s good in math? Who’s good in English? We need to divide these things up.” And so I think there’s a recognition even as co-parents that there are some things that co-parents do better than the other.

Jennifer Hargrave:

And really to hold the vision for constructive co-parenting, I mean what’s your definition of a healthy co-parenting relationship?

Carrie Beaird:

I think a healthy co-parenting relationship can put their kids first, want their kids to grow, have goals for their kids, and in fact every semester I have my co-parents share their goals. They don’t have to agree, but we need to share our goals to know where the other one’s coming from to be able to communicate, to do the business of the kids, and put their kids in a position where they can grow and develop and be the kid that the kid wants to be, but also that the parents want to invest so we can get the kid to a place at 18, we move them out of the house and onto adulthood well.

Jennifer Hargrave:

I love that. There is an idea, this is a frequently asked question I get, that at what age does the child get to decide where they want to live? People ask that all the time. And I know there’s been some changes in the law over that. What is your answer? Not from a legal perspective, but really from knowing and working with parents and working with children?

Carrie Beaird:

I hate that question and here’s why. Because if you start to go down that road then it immediately puts your child in the middle. And you don’t want the child to be in the middle of legal conflict because that’s horrible for a child, because it makes them feel like they’re being torn apart. But then number two, I think that if one of the parents are having issues with a child, we need to work through some therapy to work that out, because a lot of times I’ll explain to kids if you don’t work this out with your parent, do you really want to put them emotionally in a suitcase and take them with you to college? And they always go, “No.” And I’m like, “Well, yes, that’s what you’re choosing to do so we need to work it out.” So I would prefer people to be focused on working it out. I never can give people legal advice and they can sure go talk to their attorney at any time, but let’s don’t put our kid in the middle if there’s any way around it.

Jennifer Hargrave:

I love it. And that’s so important. And I know even well meaning people think that they’re doing the right thing because my child is now 15 and wants to live with me. And I just think when you’re even having that conversation about which parent do you want to live with, we’re putting the kid in the middle.

Carrie Beaird:

And sometimes it’s not about I want to live at home A or home B, it may be I’m in high school and I need all my stuff in one place. So then sometimes I’m working with co-parents who go, “How do we make this easier for the kid and their stuff?”

Jennifer Hargrave:

I love that conversation. That’s the best conversations, how do we make this easier for the kid? What do you see in terms of the developmental… as children age, how does parental conflict maybe shift or change from young children to elementary age and then of course the beloved teenagers?

Carrie Beaird:

Well, you know what, I think when kids are little it starts off with sometimes we have a parent who’s controlling. And with the co-parents that I work with, they both want to be involved. And well, sometimes every once in a while we have someone who steps out. But there needs to be this we. I talk especially with co-parents of young kids that there needs to be a we, because the kids need to hear I talked to your dad, I talked to your mom, and we have decided. If there can be that we and the kids can understand that even though they’re not married they’re still a we when it comes to co-parenting, my goodness, that’s going to make things easier when they’re in junior high and high school.

Carrie Beaird:

Because that kind of shuts down a loophole. We don’t want loopholes. No, no, don’t want loopholes. But then as a kid gets older, there’s also the kids’ thoughts, I want to be at this birthday party, I want to go to this camp. So especially when kids are in junior high and high school, I have to help co-parents to understand your kid has a life and we have to work around that and we need to co-parent in a way in which our kids can follow their dreams.

Jennifer Hargrave:

Right, and so it’s not much about my parenting time as it is about the child’s time with each parent, and just shifting the conversation a little bit around that.

Carrie Beaird:

Especially if a kid is involved in extracurriculars. Let’s face it, in Dallas, if you’re going to play a sport, you’re going to be in the band, you’re going to be an actor, if you’re going to be an artist, whatever that is, there’s stuff that you’ve got to be doing because there are paths to get there. I tell every co-parent, “We want to put your kid in a path where they can follow their dreams.”

Jennifer Hargrave:

And even in my own parenting relationship with my kiddos, I’ve noticed I always have to step back and ask, “Is this my dream for my child or is it their dream?” And sometimes it’s hard to wake up and go, “Yeah, it’s really my dream,” and to be able to let go and let them begin to forge their own path.

Carrie Beaird:

Yeah, it’s hard. It just is.

Overcoming Parental Alienation

Jennifer Hargrave:

What do you see in terms of, this is a big topic and we won’t cover all of this, but something else I’m hearing a lot of these days are allegations of parental alienation. And so what kind of behaviors contribute to a child rejecting another parent? What should we do when we see that starting to happen?

Carrie Beaird:

Absolutely I draw a line in the sand that says if you’re working with me we have to stop the negative talk about the other. Just can’t do it. And that’s even facial expressions.

Jennifer Hargrave:

I was going to say, it doesn’t even have to be words, its just the contempt on the face.

Carrie Beaird:

Yes it can, because again, it’s back to the child really loving the parent and if they sense that the other parent hates the co-parent, then they’re stuck in this but I love my mom or I love my dad and oh my gosh they hate the other parent. And so I think sometimes, unfortunately, it breaks my heart, that it’s purposeful alienation. Other times it’s just a parent who needs to probably do some of their own work to deal with their hatred and disappointment and anger of the past, because try as they might they’re not able to stuff it and kind of fake it.

Jennifer Hargrave:

And not even having the awareness of what the impact that that eye roll or just that very physiological response to somebody else being present. You can tell on the kiddo. The big heavy sighs. So if somebody wants to work with you, does it need to be through a court order parenting facilitation role? I know that we’ve tossed that around a little bit, we really haven’t talked about the details of that role. What are some other roles that you might play in working with family?

Carrie Beaird:

Yeah, so with parent facilitation they’re done by order it’s done by our Rule 11 between attorneys. We need to have something filed with the court. I will say apart from parent facilitation I also do co-parent counseling, and sometimes when folks aren’t involved in the court process and they just need a little tune-up, are they wanting to be better co-parents, people will come to see me for co-parent counseling. I also do therapy and I do from adult all the way down to 10. And then I also do some substance abuse evaluations for the courts.

Jennifer Hargrave:

Because I know a lot of times people will come after a divorce is finalized and they’re thinking maybe I need to modify, but the issues that they’re presenting are not really legal issues. They’re really co-parenting issues, and so to do that in a co-parenting counseling session. Does the other parent have to agree if they’re going to do co-parenting counseling with you?

Carrie Beaird:

Well, I have therapy appointments with folks who have a difficult co-parent and they come to me for some counseling, coaching, on what do I do? And so I help them to deal with the situation as they present it to me. And again, I try to at first get them to be strategic not reactive. And sometimes we find by just changing one person’s behavior, then that has an impact on the other.

Jennifer Hargrave:

A very significant impact. I think doing the coaching, if you can’t get the other parent to agree to come in and do counseling, at least get your own coaching, because what I’ve found is that our human nature, our natural responses to situations are not always the best. And that if we can change that strategy we can do it a little better.

Carrie Beaird:

Absolutely.

Jennifer Hargrave:

We were talking a little bit beforehand and you were talking about taking the hook and that you love fly fishing, so tell us a little bit about how that analogy works because I think it’s a great analogy.

Carrie Beaird:

Oh my gosh, a few years ago… I love to fly fish. I’m standing in the middle of a pond and I’m watching this giant fish swim by and I’m like, “Why are you not taking the hook?” And I’m looking at my guide going, “I want that one.” He’s like, “Well, he’s smart enough he’s not taking the hook.” And I went, “Oh my goodness. That’s what I need to help people do.” The little bitty fish, they’ll just take any hook and you catch them every time. And I always when I catch one I’ll go, “You need to get smarter because I need to catch you another year,” and throw them back in.

Carrie Beaird:

But I tell folks, “Listen, you need to be like that wise fish and when your co-parent throws out a hook that has hooked you maybe every time for 10 years, that you go, ugh, he or she’s doing it again. You look at that hook and you choose to swim on by.” And I’ve got to tell you, once I have told several of my clients about that over the years, they will actually come back with a fly fishing hook on their notebook and go, “I’m listening.” I’m like, “Don’t take the hook,” because we just need to change our behavior from the past and do something different.

Jennifer Hargrave:

And then we get different results and those results are so much better for the kids. And when you see kids who are functioning well out of a divorce scenario or out of a parental separation, it’s because the parents have figured out how to do it. For somebody right now who’s watching us and this conversation and they’re really feeling overwhelmed because they’re in a very high conflict co-parenting relationship, what message of hope do you have for them?

Carrie Beaird:

Well, there’s always hope. And today can be different from yesterday and 10 years ago. And what you have to start doing is something for your kids. You put them as, you know what, I want what’s best for my kids. I want them to be healthy, happy, and whole. And you control what you can control and that is your attitudes, actions, and behavior. And then you’ve also got to learn to be strategic, not reactive. And some of those things I think people can look at a situation and go, “Okay, that’s what I need to do.” Other times you may need to get some professional help to help you to step back and go, “Okay, here’s my strategy,” but there’s always hope. If there wasn’t hope, I need to go do something else. But the why that I do what I do is the families, when it works and the kids come back and say something to me of going, “Yeah, that was a rough chapter but that’s all it was, was a chapter, and my family got better and now I can just love both of my co-parents.” That’s what we’re going for.

Jennifer Hargrave:

I love that. That is such a great message to end on. If you want to learn more about Carrie Beaird, about the services that she offers through Co-Parenting Solutions, we’re going to include a link to her website. I hope you’ll check it out. And thank you for watching today. Please subscribe and stay tuned for more videos that we’re providing you with information about how to have a better, healthier family. And I thank you so much for your wisdom today.

Carrie Beaird:

Well, thank you, Jennifer. I’ve enjoyed being on the show. I appreciate it.

Jennifer Hargrave:

This was great, thanks.